Natalie/The Scrappy Octopus
said:
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... The list of goaltenders who have shut out the Wings this season is gag-inducing. I can't believe I'm actually nervous about the Carolina game on Thursday; the possibility of the Wings dropping that one is unreal. And then what? Ugh. On a brighter note, thanks for posting that particular clip of The Office. It helped relieve some of the crappiness of dealing with the aftermath today; plus, the Nard-Dog is my favorite. |
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Horton
said:
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... I think it is time to dismantle this team. They had a good run but this is the beginning of the end. If they wait too long, they will make the same mistake that the Detroit Pistons made. I agree with junkyarddog's post about trading #5 and #35 while they still have some value. I would expect they would each bring mid-level draft picks. And Player #8 will be back in Grand Rapids within one month. |
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Jonhny754g
said:
...says... a complete idiot.. Do you live under a rock or are you just plain stupid?? Trade Lidstrom?? Howard?? Howard, (Along with Helm, Ericsson, Abdelkader and whoever we get from a trade for Leino) are way to important to even contemplate trading. They will be the face of our franchise is a couple years. And how dumb would you be to trade Lidstrom?? Mid-level pick? We could get freakin' Crysby and the Baby Malkin, AND a first round pick for him. As soon as the other GM's heard about us dealing Lidstrom they'd be all over us. Why don't we trade Datsyuk and Zetterberg for a first round pick from Chicago. Maybe they could throw in Huet cause he's playing so well!! Not. Also, we should trade Franzen and Holmstrom because they're injured and they're obviously not very good sitting in the press box. No. We're lucky Ken Holland knows what he's doing.. I shiver to think what would happen if someone gave you the keys to the Detroit Red Wings. |
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Jonhny754g
said:
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... Also, do you even know their names, or are you just posting what some dummy already wrote? Here, I'll try. The only player that we should contemplate trading is #21, he is not playing well.. Wait who is that again??  Oh yeah, Ville Leino. NEXT |
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Keith B
said:
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... BEST. RANT. EVER. Well, since Valenti cried on air. Read here: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sielaffj/rant.html Hear here: http://houserockbuilt.blogspot...wn-on.html Kyle, your right on. I think your off though. This team stated taking it easy day 1 of last year. After winning the cup this team decided they were good enough to take off a game until they needed a win. They coasted by last year on superior talent but the drop in effort showed up on the PK and PP. They took it easy all regular season, minus the 2nd and 3rd period of the winter classic, took it easy against Columbus round 1, and game 1 and 2 against Anaheim, and game 6 and 7 against Pittsburgh. They thought they'd win cuz they had the most talent and won last year without Hossa. Nobody took the entire thing seriously. Game 6 and 7 nobody but an injured Datsyuk even broke a sweat. Nobody gave a shit. If they did, every time Malkin touched the puck in game 6 and 7 he would of been knocked on his ass. If we gave a shit, after winning game 5, the series would never have gone back to Detroit. If we gave a shit, nobody on this team would have given an "aw shucks" interview after letting Bettman's prince douche lift up Lord Stanley's Cup in our hometown. So it's not surprising that this year, after losing to FA Hossa and Hudler and Samuelsson and then losing everyone else worth a damn to injury, they're looking from outside on the playoffs. It isn't surprising that Detroit's top scoring defensman has 20 fucking points and that nobody is near 20 goals. We have 1 player who's plus minus is above a +10. 1! Leino is a -9, Meech a -9, Abdelkader (who for some reason is everybody's favorite player... what has he done?!) -7, Ericsson -7, Filppula -6, Cleary -6, Williams (remember him) has a -5 in just 15 games. I'm glad we re-signed him. Look I'm not saying blow this team up. But something needs to be done. Ever since we lost Todd McLellan our PP has become a joke and our PK went from a strength, to awful, to good but shaky. I understand we're hurt but when it takes 4 tries to get the puck into your offensive zone on a PP something isn't working. Recently, we should have declined penalties because the other team had an equal chance of scoring on the PK as we had scoring on the PP. Part of our PP problems have been scheme, some have been injuries and some have been our play. Lidstom, banking off the boards every once in a while is great, but if you NEVER SHOOT ON THE GOAL, then they just look for the bank. When was the last time Lidstom took a PP shot on net? Anyone.... Bueller? How many times do we see a Wing about to enter the offensive zone and then decide to 1. pass back or 2. make an unnecessary move that forces another player offsides? I think every PP we do one of those two things at least 2 or 3 times. If it weren't for Jimmy Howard growing from an adequate backup to one of the hottest goalies in the NHL this team wouldn't even be close to making it into the playoffs. What happens when 1. Howard cools down and 2. if Ozzie doesn't just show up for the playoffs? Lidstrom is in his final year of his contract. If we aren't going to make the playoffs it makes every sense to deal him. Now no deal should be made until everyone comes back from the IR and we clearly aren't going to make it, but nobody should be untouchable. Lidstrom has said he won't re-sign with the Wings until the offseason. Detroit shouldn't lose prospects or picks because he won't negotiate midyear. If we fall to 10th or father he should absolutely be dealt in March. He can always come back to us after the season ends as a FA. He's our Captain not THE CAPTAIN, he's tradeable. |
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Keith B
said:
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... Error fixes. Your should be you're. And I can spell started. I know we didn't re-sign Williams technically, but we sort of did. What I think my post sums up to is that we need a shake up. Maybe it's time to let go of McCrimmon (assistant coach #2) and Bedard (goalie coach) or to actually use our depth at GR and go out and I don't know make a trade for someone. Carolina: Whitney. Toronto: Kaberle or Ponikarovsky. Florida: Weiss (probably not on block), McCabe, Reinprecht, or Ballard Edmonton: Penner, Visnovsky, or Horcoff. Columbus: Huselius or Klesla (on IR) St. Louis: McDonald or Kariya. Dallas: Robidas, Morrow, Richards, or Modano |
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Jonhny754g
said:
...Lidstrom is in his final year of his contract. If we aren't going to make the playoffs it makes every sense to deal him. Hey, thanks tips! Let's do that! Great idea! We could maybe trade him for a sniper like Kovalchuck and then we could have our goals back!.. Only wait.. There might be a problem with that idea. A big problem. Hey bud, how much do you watch hockey, the Red Wings specifically. Lidstrom may not be scoring as much, or even getting as many assists.. But what do you normally see of the other team's best player after playing the wings? 2 shots, -2. Know who that's because of? You guessed it. Also, who is the person that has the +/- over 10?? Nicklas Lidstrom, with a +14. When most players on our team are minuses.. that's amazing. So perfect, let's trade away Lidstrom, the captain of our team, our best player, best defenseman in the league. Great idea. So we trade him for, let's go all out and say Kovalchuck. Best possible scenario, Kovalchuck scores a goal per game, but without Lidstrom we let in over a goal per game. Oh no, we just got the short end of the stick. Even if we traded for a pick, they wouldn't be in the NHL for a couple years, and we'd have the same problem, except we wouldn't even be getting that extra goal per game.. I can see it now.. Worst deal of Century.. Lidstrom dealt.. Wings pay heavy price.. Holland crazy for taking stupid advice for some know-it all. He's our Captain not THE CAPTAIN, he's tradeable. See that's where you are wrong. He is THE CAPTAIN, and he is not tradeable. Not if the Wings want any chance at the Cup. |
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feawfreag43
said:
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... You forgot Gunnarsson. Carl Gunnarsson. Hey bud, don't knock the Gunnar. He scored a sniper in the pre-season game Detroit and Toronto. He's actually quite a good player, lot of potential. He's injured now, but before he was injured he was playing some pretty good hockey. (I live in Ontario so most of the hockey games I see are Toronto, and I tell you he's going to be good). He was a late pick (194th) in 2007 and he's 23. Hey! Maybe since 'Brain' Burke is such a good GM for Toronto, maybe he'd take Meech, Leino and either Lebda or May for Gunnarsson. Hmm.. Toronto is trying to get all tough too, and Burke is an awful GM, Holland should take to him. It'd free us some cap space too.. |
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KyleKujawa
said:
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... Alright, I'm frustrated too, but there's no way Lidstrom goes anywhere. I'm a little shocked that so many have brought this up. Consider: 1. Detroit is a class act organization that prides themselves on loyalty. If they refuse to waive Kirk Maltby, why on earth would they trade Nick Lidstrom? He is not "the captain," as Keith says, referencing Yzerman, but he's close. He's the franchise right now. He's been here 20 years. The reason players take less to win in Detroit is because they treat their players right and don't do things this irrational. Tell me, is it worth giving that up because you don't think Nick's playing up to potential? 2. Who would actually want Nick Lidstrom? Well, the answer to that is every player on 29 NHL teams. Logistically, it doesn't work. Lidstrom has a very tough contract to move. In addition to an NTC that he'd never dream of waiving, Nick makes $7.45 million. Pro-rated, it's not nearly as much, but that right there takes away nearly half of the league who have less than $2 million in cap space, leaving mainly non-playoff teams as your options. Why would those teams mortgage their future when they're not guaranteed a long playoff run? For that matter, why would a contending team give up their top young assets for Lidstrom? First of all, he cannot score for the life of him. Secondly, he'd probably rather retire than move his family to a new city at this point. Third, if a contending team DID have the cap room to add a player in the $7-$8 million dollar range, why would they use it on a supposedly struggling Lidstorm? 3. Lidstrom is only playing poorly by his standards. Offensively he has disappointed, and I think he has lost all offensive confidence. Defensively, he is still shutting down everyone's stars. A gaffe here and there, but absolutely nowhere as many as every single one of Detroit's other defensemen. No Norris, unless he goes on a tear in the second half (and even then...) but there's not a defenseman in the league I would take over him for this season. If a trade happens, it's not going to be a shake up, it'll be an addition. It'll be young assets moved for a veteran scorer. If Detroit was healthy and losing every night to the Islanders, I could see that they might want to sell off some players. Not Lidstrom. Not Draper or Maltby for that matter. But the fact is, as much as I hate coming back to this, this season is NOT lost if this team can learn to show up every night. Trading Lidstrom is not only impractical, it's unwise, outlandish, and downright idiotic. Sorry. Just makes my blood boil a little bit to see that fans would be willing to sell the captain down the river. He's only been a major part of six Stanley Cup Finals appearances. Let's send him off the right way, by totally disgracing him to the city he loves and renting him out to another team. Class. Trading Howard is nearly as bad. He's the single reason we're within ten points of a playoff spot. And with the way Osgood's been going, it would give Detroit a lottery pick. Detroit's goal is to groom their own drafted goalie, why trade the most successful one to date? |
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Horton
said:
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... A Lidstrom for Kaberle deal make a lot of sense. The Wings need a high quality defenseman that can help produce some goals. Kaberle is 8 years younger and makes $3 million less. The Leafs could throw in Ponikarovsky to even up the salary difference. Does anyone has the email address for Mr. Ken Holland? |
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KyleKujawa
said:
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... In what altered reality does that deal make anything close to "a lot of sense?" |
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Joe L
said:
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... @feawfreag43 As a native Vermonter, I'd love to see the Wings pick up Viktor Stalberg from the Leafs. One of the best players UVM has had in a while |
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junkyarddog
said:
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... Mr. K Please read horton and Keith B post and give them more thought. They make alot of sense. I think they see alot of games at the Joe like I do {paying customers} and have terrific insight. Johnny754g do you get the sporting news? Your post read like their coverage. Also Nickey L is only +12 because of Jimmy howard bing the hot goaily lately. Just move him while you can still get a top younger player or two. Yea sure we will miss him but need the cap room. Players like janick need to have a chance too! |
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Jonhny754g
said:
...A Lidstrom for Kaberle deal make a lot of sense. The Wings need a high quality defenseman that can help produce some goals. Kaberle is 8 years younger and makes $3 million less. The Leafs could throw in Ponikarovsky to even up the salary difference. Does anyone has the email address for Mr. Ken Holland? Just stop talking Horton. Nobody is listening. |
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junkyarddog
said:
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... Horton I think you can send a letter to Mr. I. He listens to Paying Customers. What would you think of Linstrom for J Quick, Douraty and a draft pick from LA? Wings cannot afford to to pay one player 8 million anymore! |
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Coffey
said:
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... Jonhny754g, you must have some brain damage to think an aging 38 year-old Swedish defenseman is worth a Crosby or Malkin. Lidstrom had great value in the prime of his career but it is dropping fast. He only has 1 or 2 years left. I fully support trading him to aquire some younger talent to keep the Wings an elite team. |
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junkyarddog
said:
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... ... Jonhny754g, you must have some brain damage to think an aging 38 year-old Swedish defenseman is worth a Crosby or Malkin. Lidstrom had great value in Hey Mr. Coffey Take it easy on Johnny 754. He has a point of view too! He probably has not followed Hockey much { A Rookie }. Give 754 TIME and he will get to know the sport!!!! |
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Jonhny754g
said:
...Jonhny754g, you must have some brain damage to think an aging 38 year-old Swedish defenseman is worth a Crosby or Malkin. Lidstrom had great value in the prime of his career but it is dropping fast. He only has 1 or 2 years left. I fully support trading him to aquire some younger talent to keep the Wings an elite team. Honestly, if he can still shut down Malkin and Crosby then he's worth more then you say he is. He's the best defenseman in the league. Case closed. On a team full of minuses he's a +14, and the Wings aren't even scoring. So you sir, have the right to remain silent. By the way Lidstrom is 39, 40 come april. But if you're just going to blabber its probably better that you don't get your facts straight. No one will take you seriously that way.. not that they do anyways.. And you Horton.. Jonhny754g, you must have some brain damage to think an aging 38 year-old Swedish defenseman is worth a Crosby or Malkin. Lidstrom had great value in I know hockey better then you. Its our national sport, what have you got? Baseball? I'm pretty sure I know hockey better then some guy from who knows what county who thinks Nicklas Lidstrom is old and failing. I'm certainly not a rookie. I know the game of hockey. Nicklas Lidstrom is our best player, and trading him would be nothing short of suicide, what would our first defense line be then? Certainly not one good enough to shut down the opponent's first line like now. Do you ever watch the Wings play? And Mr. Horton, learn how to quote. Horton I think you can send a letter to Mr. I. He listens to Paying Customers. What would you think of Linstrom for J Quick, Douraty and a draft pick from LA? Wings cannot afford to to pay one player 8 million anymore! First of all, he wouldn't listen to somebody that has never seen the Wings play before. Also, we don't need Quick we have Howard, Larsson, McCollum, and Pearce, plus Ozzie for the playoffs. You also spelt Doughty's name wrong. Oh wait, you spelt Lindstrom's name wrong as well.. And you claim to watch the Red Wings. Just stop posting. Please. For the good of everyone, including to stop embarassing yourself, showing how ignorant you are. |
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Jonhny754g
said:
...Alright, I'm frustrated too, but there's no way Lidstrom goes anywhere. I'm a little shocked that so many have brought this up. Consider: Finally with someone with brains!! Eh, eh! And Kyle, these aren't what you would call fans, they are what you would call band wangon hoppers. Nicklas Lidstrom. Best defense on the Wings. Best defense in the league. Best defense in the world. ... Mhm.. first of all you spelt Janik's name wrong. And he honestly isn't that great, just steady.. Although it is nice to see a #37 not smoking them way off above and beside the net.. Any real Wings fans would get this. Second of all, I sound like the sporting news eh? Maybe I just have a flair for writing? Or maybe the media is smarter then they look, and smarter then this lot. Trade Lidstrom? Great lookout bud, who's next? Datsyuk? Reason? "Yeah, he's been slumping lately so we dumped him. Am I aware that he's now scoring a goal per game in Atlanta? Yeah, oh well. Our pick might be ready in 2 years. Maybe he'll be half as good as Datsyuk." Oh yeah I forgot, Lidstrom is a +14, not 12. People need to do more reasearch instead of blindly saying things that aren't true to make themselves look good. They win the cup and everyone is a 'Fan'. Vultures more like it. |
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MichiganSports
said:
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... I am seeing some strong opinions here today. Lets all keep it clean and respect even some radical ideas for fixing the Wings. I guess that's what happens when your team gets beat 6-0 by the NYI. |
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waltdetroit
said:
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... There is more to a team make-up than just personal talent. Losing Kung Nicholas would send us into a tailspin. A big part of Detroit's success is the teamwork, loyalty, and leadership, both in the front office & on the ice. Lidstrom will not be traded ever unless he requests it. (I could swear people are talking like it's a fulll moon) |
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Keith B
said:
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... If its March and we're not making the playoffs then 1. Why would Lidstrom not wave his NTC for one more cup? 2. Why would trading Lidstrom (who is retiring this year or next year) for young prospects (thinking we could get Kovalchuk is fucking nuts--> shows your a complete moron) who we could use for years, a bad deal? 3. If you think Lidstrom is the best D in the league you must also think Domi is the best fighter in the league and that Roy/Hasek are phenomenal. Your 4 years late! Lidstrom is a #1 D. He's an elite D. He's not the #1 D. Even if he is the #1 D I'd rather have a #1 D prospect and own him for the next 10 years then the #1 D for 1 more year if we're not going to the playoffs. By the way, his +14 is due to him always playing with Datysuk and Zetterberg, the leagues 2 best 2-way and defensive forwards. Also, I'd rather have a D have "only" a +7 and have 8 PP goals then have a +14 D who aims 5 feet wide every time. By the way, I have seen every Wings game the last 2 years, so the next time you try and rip me for being a hockey novice realize that just because your brain automatically defaults to Wings = best and cannot comprehend any complexity, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm the one who's not making sense. BTW I'd take Mike Green and his 46 points, 6 PPG, and +17 stats (at the ago of 24!) any day over Lidstrom. Lidsrtom is no better then 3rd and more likely between 5th and 8th in terms of overall defenders. |
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KyleKujawa
said:
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... Oh man. This place is chaos right now. I love it. But, while I appreciate the lively debate, this is seriously irritating. Trade Lidstrom? Datsyuk with chest hair? What is going on in here? I don't believe that any of you "trade Lidstrom" people are for real. NONE of you have been able to answer this question for me. 1. Detroit is a class act organization that prides themselves on loyalty. If they refuse to waive Kirk Maltby, why on earth would they trade Nick Lidstrom? He is not "the captain," as Keith says, referencing Yzerman, but he's close. He's the franchise right now. He's been here 20 years. The reason players take less to win in Detroit is because they treat their players right and don't do things this irrational. Tell me, is it worth giving that up because you don't think Nick's playing up to potential? Really? Seriously, is it worth it to you to completely throw away that loyalty factor? Do you really want to throw that away? No more hometown discounts? No more superstar players signing not for money, but to win? No more superstar players like Zetterberg and Franzen taking lifetime deals. Why just throw out that loyalty? If anyone can answer me these questions, I'll stop taking such a strong position, but I can't believe these talks are actually going on right now. You guys are making junkyarddog's posts make sense, and that guy is... yikes. Seriously, have ANY of you considered the ramifications of this? How do you think Detroit still gets all the contract perks if they just randomly decide to ship out their captain. Not that Nick would even waive his NTC. If Detroit even asked him to waive the clause, the fit would hit the shan, so to speak. Keith, man, you know I respect you, but you're seriously talking right out of your ass right now. What happened man? How is this at all logical? 1. Because he has four Cups. He has three kids. Why would he want to leave them? Why would he want to leave when even he knows this team is underachieving? He's the captain. He's playing 26 minutes a night. Some superstars are like that -- Nick isn't. I guarantee he's rather just walk away from the NHL than play for another city. 2. Because no team would GIVE UP young prospects for a player they know has no chance of re-signing with them. Again, kids, but even still, he'd rather retire than go off to Columbus or something. And, AGAIN, half the league doesn't have cap space to acquire him. The teams that can afford him are already out of the playoffs and would be downright stupid to give up prospects for him. Old players don't get young prospects in return -- players in their prime do. Even as you say, Nick isn't in his prime. Prospects coming back are mediocre at best. 3. Name me a superstar that's had a good game against Detroit. Can you? Exactly, that's because he's going up against Lidstrom and Rafalski. He's made some gaffes this season, but he's still freakishly good in his own end. 4. His +/- is good because he plays with Datsyuk and Zetterberg? Yeah... cause Datsyuk is just tearing it up offensively right now, right? And Zetterberg, who just missed three weeks. Funny, too, that Datsyuk is a +10 and Zetterberg is a +4. 5. MIKE GREEN? Seriously? Really. Seriously. Wow. Don't just look at stats dude, he's Ovechkin's fourth forward. If you can name me one great defensive play that Green's made recently, I'll delete my blog right now. The guy is just lost in his own end. If you want a forward on defense, just wait until Williams comes back. Green blows. I don't care if Lidstrom isn't scoring, he is the best DEFENSIVE defenseman in the league, and while he's not scoring (goals, though he had one today) he's still competent offensively. Sorry Keith. But this is just stupid. Detroit will never consider this, so it's even pointless to argue. But you're not even bringing up good points -- none of you are. This is honestly embarrassing to read as a Wings fan. |
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junkyarddog
said:
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... Wow! Keith B posts are Right on. They show the most understanding of the game! Johney 7 read them and LEARN!!!!!! |
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Joe L
said:
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... Brendan Smith reminds me a lot of Mike Green at this point. Hopefully the Red Wings can help him develop more defensively. |
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Jonhny754g
said:
...... You need to learn something. Make that a lot of something. Mike Green can't play defensively. Why don't you think he made the Canadian Olympic team? Cause Stevey and Babs have something against him? Because they don't care about what happens. No, he's not good enough. Offensively, he's great. But until he starts limiting turnovers and learns to play defensively you are just talking and talking..and no one is listening. Plus, you spelt Lidstrom wrong. AGAIN. You are obviously a band wagon hopper, so just get off this site. Now. You think Nicky's career is over now, eh? I bet he signs a 3 year deal, for way less money then he's worth, and he'll still be the best defenseman in the league, just like he is now. You can't attribute his +/- to playing with Z and Pav. Half the time, due to injuries Lidstrom's been playing with Ledbda, or Meech, so you can't point everything to Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Actually, I don't know why I'm posting about Meech and Lebda because you probably think they're amazing too since you obviously don't watch the Wings. Really? Seriously, is it worth it to you to completely throw away that loyalty factor? Do you really want to throw that away? No more hometown discounts? No more superstar players signing not for money, but to win? No more superstar players like Zetterberg and Franzen taking lifetime deals. Why just throw out that loyalty? If anyone can answer me these questions, I'll stop taking such a strong position, but I can't believe these talks are actually going on right now. You guys are making junkyarddog's posts make sense, and that guy is... yikes. Here's someone that knows what they're talking about. As yes Kyle, it is embarrassing, but these people aren't real fans. Band wagon hoppers. Keith, stop posting. You are talking like a fool, and just embarrassing yourself. And Rafalski and Lidstrom are still owning the other teams first lines, something Mike Green can only dream of doing. Wow! Keith B posts are Right on. They show the most understanding of the game! Johney 7 read them and LEARN!!!!!! If I had the power to ban.. All you 'fans' would be outta here. |
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MichiganSports
said:
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... Kyle, these fans are not saying Lidstrom will be traded, they are saying he should be traded if the right deal was available. Anyone who saw the photos of Lidstrom’s house in the newspaper last week, knows about his ties to the community knows that he is extremely unlikely to agree to a trade. To understand why he should be traded you have to forget everything you know about the Red Wings. Ready? Here are my points for making a deal. 1.If you compare this current Wings team to their teams over the last 14 years, you can see that this team is not going to the Stanley Cups finals without some major changes. It is going to take more than a trading deadline rent-a-player by Kenny Holland for this team to advance deep into the playoffs. 2.The loyalty factor/hometown discount – your main point. The Wings built their “player loyalty” reputation before the salary cap era. With today’s low cap, they can’t continue the same degree of player loyalty and remain a powerhouse. Here are some Wings player losses where their loyalty factor may be in question: Hossa, Hudler, Osgood, Samuelsson, Federov. 3.Lidstrom is near the end of his career. It is always a tough decision to cut ties with a long-time star player, but he still has great value now and in two years he will be gone/retired with nothing in return. 4.Lidstrom’s loyalty only came in question once that I can recall. Years ago, in order to get a better contact, he leaked rumors that he was going to return to play hockey in Sweden. 5.Buy low / Sell high – The Wings drafted Lidstrom with a 3rd round pick. They got a great 20 years of hockey from him but the recent 43-game goal drought clearly shows some of his skills are fading. Knowing the Wings as we do, Lidstrom is likely not going anyway and will retire as a Wing. But don’t be shocked if Kenny starts seeing the reality of the new NHL. |
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Jonhny754g
said:
...A Lidstrom for Kaberle deal make a lot of sense Lidstrom is in his final year of his contract. If we aren't going to make the playoffs it makes every sense to deal him. I agree with junkyarddog's post about trading #5 and #35 while they still have some value. I would expect they would each bring mid-level draft picks. And Player #8 will be back in Grand Rapids within one month. Kyle, these fans are not saying Lidstrom will be traded, they are saying he should be traded if the right deal was available. No, they are saying we should throw him away for any deal we can get, whether it be a good one or a bad one. They got a great 20 years of hockey from him but the recent 43-game goal drought clearly shows some of his skills are fading. Yet, he's still +15. All you Lindstrom hater's out there, shut it. |
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KyleKujawa
said:
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... What reality? It's not like they can't afford Lidstrom. He's due to take a pay cut in fact, one that's going to help Detroit secure the younger parts of their future, like Helm, Abdelkader, and Eaves, for a long time. Regarding some of those other points: 1. That would be relevant if Detroit didn't have such a good record against teams better than them in the standings. They're 2-0 against San Jose, for example, and 16-6-3 overall against teams in the playoff picture right now, but 6-10-2 against teams outside of the picture. That has nothing to do with talent; it's motivation. 2. All of those names on that list you have left for more money, with the exception of Osgood. Every single one had an offer on the table. That's why Detroit's loyal, the company line is that you take less money to win Cups. Some of those players decided the money was a little higher priority. Osgood is a different story because he had always struggled, but Detroit was still loyal. They were able to improve on the position, and moved him so he didn't just rot on the bench. Still, when he looked like he was almost out of NHL options Detroit brought him back and helped him rebuild his game. Loyalty? I think so. 3. And you don't think that's incredibly disrespectful towards him? What's he done (or not done) where he deserves that kind of treatment? 4. That's because he was the best defenseman in the league and wanted to be paid as such. It's just part of the negotiation process. I don't think players are not loyal for looking to cash in on their play -- there are some greedy players, but Nick isn't one of them. It's not greedy because you refuse to accept the first offer you get, from a guy like Holland who's done his fair share of low-balling over his career. Still, does it say anything about loyalty that he would rather go back to Sweden than play for another NHL team? I expect that to be a big part of his upcoming decision this summer. 5. Again, not seeing this. I see a lack of confidence, but I see a defenseman who's made like 10 mistakes this season. Compared to Lebda or Meech, who make about 10 a week. Or Mike Green, who makes about 10 a game. Green's great offensively. He wins games. Lidstrom wins Cups. |
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Baroque
said:
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... Trade Lidstrom, Nick Lidstrom, winner of SIX freaking Norris Trophies, captain of the team, holder of FOUR Stanley Cup rings and winner of the Conn Smythe Trophy in one of those runs ... for a mid-level prospect? And the mention of Mike "maybe I'm good enough defensively for a Selke nomination" Green makes me ill. There must be some AMAZING hallucinogenic drugs floating around the internet these days. WOW. Team loyalty is even more important now than in the days before the salary cap was instituted, because it is the only way a team can be built with more than a few decent players. You have to rely on players out-performing their contracts or you are screwed. This can happen a few ways - young players maturing more quickly than anticipated and delivering on their entry level deals before they cash in, retreads and bargains and waiver pickups that were at least short-term cheap even if they didn't do anything all that great, and excellent players accepting less than they could have commanded when objectively compared to other players around the league because they have faith that the team will use the savings from their lowered cap hit to improve the team around them instead of pocketing it as profits. Without out-performing players the team is going to be horrible. Read any intelligent Oilers blog and the fans fret about the number of contracts the team has that are overpays and thus are strangling the team because those players aren't playing up to their cap hit and they can't be moved for cheaper players who would possibly be less crappy. Overly long and expensive contracts will kill a team because management can't just buy more players to make up for the talent shortfall - the only option is to bury them in the minors and accept the hit on the wallet, or just suffer until the contract is up. If there was not a cap, Zetterberg would be making a heck of a lot more money each year because he is good enough to deserve it. He's taking less because he likes playing for Detroit, he doesn't want to play anywhere else (remember how much he was distracted by the negotiations? I think part of the reason he wanted such a long contract was that the negotiations were so uncomfortable for him that he never wanted to go through the experience again) and he trusted the Detroit front office to spend the money wisely. Hossa was never going to fit under the cap - from the time negotiations started, it was pretty clear to most fans that either he or Franzen was going to sign a contract and the other was going to go elsewhere. Without a cap Hossa would still be a Wing today. Hudler signed a two-year deal, tax-free, for enormous dollars in the KHL that the Wings could not afford because it didn't fit under the cap, yet also went through arbitration so he would have a contract with Detroit waiting for him whenever he decided to return (and he called Ken Holland to wish him a Happy New Year and mentioned that he hasn't decided what he's doing next year yet, so don't count the spunky squirt out yet). Samuelsson was running out of time to cash in on a fairly large contract, and he was not going to get one from Detroit, so good for him - I was glad to see him with a team where he has a chance to be successful and cash in on one of his last chances before he needs to sign for low-priced veteran contracts just before he retires. It isn't loyalty, it's a wide disparity in salary. Taking a little less to pay with a winner is one thing, but playing for a third of your worth is insane and I wouldn't expect anyone to do that in any profession. Lidstrom deserves all the respect in the world from this team for what he has done for them and how he has represented the jersey for two decades. Shuffling him off to another team as a rental for a handful of prospects would be to spit on that legacy, and they will never do that. Nick retires a Red Wing after never wearing another NHL jersey ever. Too suggest otherwise is a sign of mental derangement. |
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waltdetroit
said:
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... Points: 1) Federov wanted to get out-of-town. The wings matched an incredibly large front-ended contract to keep him early on in his career to keep him. 2) When healthy, this wings team is still one of the 8 best teams in the league and has a shot at the cup. Just not the favorite as in past years. 3) Loyalty only goes so far, sure, but can we lose the leadership and the heart of our team & at what cost? Mid-round pick or Kaberle? I'd rather have Kung Nick for the next 3-4 years. 4)Criticizing our players for poor play is 1 thing, but tearing it apart to rebuild is not necessary. Something must be said for the wings system in that we are still in the race for the playoffs. Could any other team lose the quality & number of players we have to injury and still have a chance for the play-offs? 5) After a great run, we are having a down year for us. Does anyone remember 1st round eliminations? The past 2 SC Finals were awesome. I don't know why the worm-tongues are coming out with such under-mining suggestions. Maybe we need to do some player trades, but let them improve the teams. The negative tripping is from those who lack faith and cannot handle the adversity that makes this sport the best. |
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Keith B
said:
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... Johnny, if you call me a bandwagon fan one more time I'm gonna find your house and bash your teeth in. I have been a Wings fan since 1991 (when I was 3 and I went with my Dad to a game). My favorite all time sports memory is when I was 9 and in double overtime and Yzerman put the puck in over Furh's right shoulder from the blue line. I started jumping just like Yzerman after that play. It was a huge deal to me because it was a school night (I think a Thursday) and it was the first Wings game I saw after midnight. Also, I've been posting on Kyle's site before Babcock's Death Stare existed". Walt, Nick is a FA. We wouldn't be losing him for 3-4 years if we traded him. He could just re-sign here. We'd lose him for 3 months and get a lot in a deal. P.S. He could just retire and then we'd lose him for nothing. Kyle, A team like SJ who can't get over the hump would overpay for him. I guarantee we would get a #1 pick and a #1 prospect. Besides SJ I'm sure teams like Washington or Boston would pay a lot too. General Points: I'm not saying deal him. I'm saying deal him if we get the right offer if our season is over. I think his "no contract talk during the season" stance is very un-Red Wing like. Yzerman would never have pulled that. In fact, it's very Federov like. I remember the Wings dealing players like Coffey to build for the future and if the Wings can't make the playoffs this year then why not build for the future. Mike Green couldn't play defense. Last year he was awful. However, this year he's better. I watch a ton of Capitals games and have been to 4-5 games this year (oh and I'll be at the game Tuesday), he's gotten better. Also, I'd take a D who will score 300 goals before he turns 30 any day. Can someone else please back me up. Lidstrom is not the league's best D. He hasn't even been the best D this year on the Wings! Kyle said so when he gave out the player's grades. Stuart has been much better this year. Lidstrom is too tentative. How can you say you can't count Z and Datysuk into Lidstom's +13. The Wings have the puck 75% of the time Lidstom is out on the ice since they are the best puck possession players the league has ever seen. Also, they are the #1 (Datsyuk) and #2 (Z) defensive and 2-way forwards in the league. Mike Fischer is close but these two are amazing. How can you say having 2 forwards that not only keep the puck on their stick but play amazing D doesn't help Lidstrom's numbers? Also, he plays with Rafalski 75% of the time. Yes, Lidstrom played with Lebda for awhile, but Stuart has been without Kronwall much longer. Stuart and Kronwall are the Wings top D line. Lidstrom has lost a step and is way too tentative. I'm not saying he needs to hit I'm saying he avoids contact at all cost. And Rafalski can't move a pre-teen girl from the front of the net. Finally, my original point is being over looked. I said Detroit has been playing uninspired hockey since they beat Pittsburgh and won the cup two seasons ago. Can anyone argue differently? Kyle had numerous posts last year about how this team just turned it up when they wanted too. Now this year sans Hossa, Samuelsson, Hudler and a dozen players due to injury they can't afford to just turn it on when the want. Kyle's article here is pointing out the same thing. AND WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS TEAMMATES BEING PREPARED AND READY? THE CAPTAIN!!!! Lidstrom as Captain should have this team playing night in and night out. This team never took a month never mind a season off under Yzerman. Look I get the whole "lead by example" thing but it only works when the example is good. Lidstrom has had multiple sloppy and lazy games. How can we expect a team filled with GR call-ups not to follow his queue? Yes, Babcock and MacLean and McCrinnon need to also step up their game plans and line changes. Yes, Bedard needs to get Ozzie playing somewhat respectable to take the heat off of Jimmy. Yes, Holland probably needs to find more then Drew Miller to help a team beleaguered with injuries. But if this team worked hard and lost close games I'd look off the ice. However, it's been on the ice that's been the problem. That and horrible NHL officials. Lidstrom needs to step it up and lead this team. That's why he has the C. Prove your the leader everyone here thinks you are. Prove your not a shell of what you used to be. Prove you can pick up your play and your teammates play. Prove it and I'll be in your corner. The last 2 years though, ever since you lifted up the cup, you haven't! |
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Keith B
said:
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... I do know the difference between you're and your. Sorry. Just finished a 10 page paper on how behavioral economics explains political party affiliation and now the English grammar part of my brain is dead. |
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waltdetroit
said:
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... Keith: Your 1st point on Nick is valid. The Bruins traded Bourque but he never won a cup. I feel that the teams you mention giving a 1st rounder, they will be very late 1st rounders. If we get a D man to replace Nick at those positions it will be years before they make the team. It is more likely that Nick would sign a 3-4 yr contract then retire, and probably only with the wings. By all reports, Nick wants to be a wing for life and it is his call if he wants to be moved. I disagree with your original point. I think that the leadership & coaching have kept this group of "B" wings in the hunt for a playoff spot despite the decrease in talent. An Aside: I live in DC and Green should shoulder much of the blame for the playoffs loss. However the Caps have many good young D (under 24 yrs old) and just need to get the experience. Wait 2-3 years and Green should be awesome. |
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KyleKujawa
said:
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... Keith, hopefully this is the last I'm talking of this asinine idea (brilliant post by Baroque earlier), but I just wanted to respond to your main point. I very much disagree that this team has been uninspired since beating the Pens in '08. There were some definite problems last year, perhaps signs of what we're seeing this year. But you don't play uninspired and get to the finals. THAT team turned it on when they needed to. Sometimes it was in the 3rd period of a game they'd coasted 40 minutes in. But there weren't too many bad playoff efforts last season. They coasted over Columbus, stayed resilient against Anaheim, cruised through Chicago and dominated Pittsburgh. They just ran out of gas, injuries are considered an excuse but they also were a big reason. The Pens were far more motivated to not only beat Detroit but to not let Hossa beat them. And so on and so forth. That's another issue in itself, there are tons of reasons why the Wings lost (trust me, I had all summer to think about it), and not the least of them had anything to do with Nick Lidstrom. The problem this season is getting up to play bad teams. This team has shown up in virtually every game against their traditional rivals as well as teams they need to beat to catch in the standings. They dominated one of the best home teams in the league, San Jose, and just this afternoon controlled most of the game against the red hot Hawks. This still without Kronwall, Holmstrom, Williams, and Franzen. That's like Chicago being without Seabrook, Byfuglien, Brouwer, and Hossa, if you think about what each player means to it's team. That team would not have put forth the effort that Detroit did this afternoon. The bad teams are a whole different issue. I don't see that as being Nick Lidstrom's problem. Meech was a guy who I think was -4 against the Islanders. It's not Nick's fault that Meech sucks, it's Meech's fault. Injuries can also be blamed as Meech is not an NHL regular. Lidstrom didn't hurt Kronwall. Kronwall is not a defensive expert by any means, but he's not ever going to go -4 against a team like the Islanders. Lidstrom was fine that game (as he has been for most games), so I don't see leadership by example to be a problem. The captain is responsible for motivation, no doubt, but he doesn't shoulder the entire load. Just as much of that falls onto the coaches as well as the players themselves -- who are supposedly professionals. They're not babies, Nick doesn't need to hold them by the hand. He's not a vocal guy, not every captain is. He has played 80% mistake-free hockey this season. He's nearly 40. People call him The Perfect Human -- but that's in jest. There was bound to be a day when he would finally slow down. EVEN STILL, Lidstrom is only having an offseason by HIS standards. "Mistakes" is not a statistical category, but just from watching NHL hockey almost every night, I can tell you that Nick Lidstrom still does not make many mistakes, compared to the rest of the league. Green makes about a dozen mistakes a night, even Chara's good for a few stupid plays per game. Lidstrom is far and away the best defensive defenseman in this league. I only said Stuart has been better because he has by far exceeded expectations, while Lidstrom has fallen a bit short of my expectation that he would again win the Norris. That is the ridiculous standard he has set for himself after two decades of excellence. If this team were healthy right now and underachieving, your argument would have more merit, but still close to none at all. I get that you're not calling for him to be traded, I think. But you've still yet to touch on the idea of how a move like that goes along with Detroit's loyalty policy, and what exactly Nick has or hasn't done to deserve such an embarrassing send off as being traded off to one of Detroit's rivals (SJ/BOS/etc would not have the cap room for him, FYI) as a rental player. Lidstrom wants another Cup, no doubt. But I can assure you he wants it in Detroit, and nothing about the way they've played any contenders this season suggests that, if healthy, they're incapable of a long playoff run. |
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Keith B
said:
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... Your first paragraph proves my point. This team coasted all last year and then would just turn it up when they had to. They had the talent to pull that off. This year they don't. Last year they had a 2nd line with a 30 goal scorer! This year minus the FA and minus the injured players they can't just turn it on all of a sudden and sneak in a win. You're saying exactly what I am saying. And if the team coasts at all in the playoffs (Columbus) you need to consider if the team wants to win. I know they dominated Columbus but they didn't try. They were that good last year. But guess what, other Western teams (Chicago, Nashville, Colorado, Phoenix, Calgary, LA, Vancouver) actually got better and our team, talent wise, isn't close to matching last year's team. |
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KyleKujawa
said:
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... That's not what I'm saying. You said they've been uninspired since '08. I don't think they were uninspired last season like they are this season. They were inspired last season when they needed to be. This season, they've had a few must win games and they've yet to deliver. But that has nothing to do with trading Lidstrom. |
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Baroque
said:
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... Lidstrom is not lazy - how can anyone say he has had LAZY games? You do not build up a record of achievement as he has over two decades by slacking off. He leads by example on the ice and off - he is always courteous, calm, and positive and encouraging when he speaks about the team to the press, and on the ice he is solid as a rock, still plays a ton of minutes through an elbow with tendinitis that got him suspended after the all-star game last year because it was a better idea to stay home and get medical treatment than to schmooze with the public, still shuts down the opposing team's stars, still plays as wonderfully positioned penalty kill as anyone, and never coasts - ever. Screaming like a fishwife or throwing teammates under the bus for not performing is not leadership - keeping calm through everything and playing hard through injury, struggles, road trips, and officiating circuses is leadership. (And thanks for the compliment, Kyle.) |
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Jonhny754g
said:
...Johnny, if you call me a bandwagon fan one more time I'm gonna find your house and bash your teeth in. I have been a Wings fan since 1991 (when I was 3 and I went with my Dad to a game). My favorite all time sports memory is when I was 9 and in double overtime and Yzerman put the puck in over Furh's right shoulder from the blue line. I started jumping just like Yzerman after that play. It was a huge deal to me because it was a school night (I think a Thursday) and it was the first Wings game I saw after midnight. Also, I've been posting on Kyle's site before Babcock's Death Stare existed". Bandwagon hopper. Go back to Pittsburgh, that's where you obviously were in 91-92. Not in Detroit. But guess what, other Western teams (Chicago, Nashville, Colorado, Phoenix, Calgary, LA, Vancouver) actually got better and our team, talent wise, isn't close to matching last year's team. Dirty rumour/lie. I'd match Bertuzzi up to Sammmy any day, and I'll take Williams on the second powerplay, Hudler up to Eaves and Hossa.. we didn't even need him. Z was on pace for a 50 goal season, then Hossa came and started hogging up all Datsyuk's passes. Plus without Hossa Franzen (when not injured) has time on the first line. I feel better with Franzen on the first line then Mary-Anne Hossa. Jimmah is better then Conklin, and Babs is still Babs, best coach in the NHL. Oh I forgot, Holland is the best GM in the league too. We've still got amazing depth, talent pool is just as good, if not better (Because all our young players keep improving, and Franzen is amazing.) You're out of your mind to say that Vancouver got that much better. What's different about Vancouver now? Nothing, Alex Burrows is still a crybaby, and Kyle Wellwood is still fat. |
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Horton
said:
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... Kyle, whenever Jonhny754g posts anything you should edit or delete his posts. I have reviewed all of the negative comments above and his immature personality and name calling is not good for your world class Red Wings blog. |
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Jonhny754g
said:
...Kyle, whenever Jonhny754g posts anything you should edit or delete his posts. This from the guy that wants to dismantle the team and trade away Jimmah and Lidstrom?? ... Hey maybe my posts are a little heavy, but that's the way its going to be, I'm a big Wings fan, and when you say dumb things that make me want to throw up, I'm going to post something negative. If Kyle tells me to stop posting or take it easy, I will. Until then, I'm going to keep going, my way. |
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KyleKujawa
said:
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... Never stop posting. Everyone has a right to their opinion, and you're doing so reasonably (one of the most reasonable in this post, I might add). I don't mind the heated stuff at all, as long as it doesn't degenerate into back and forth personal attacks. Even then, I don't think I could see myself censoring or banning a user unless things got really out of control. |
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KristenGray31
said:
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... If you are in the corner and have got no cash to get out from that, you would require to receive the business loans. Because that should help you emphatically. I take small business loan every single year and feel OK just because of that. |
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